Wednesday, August 4, 2021

Is Regan a DIDDY?

Is Stewart Regan,  Chief Executive Officer of the Scottish Football Association a DIDDY?

Disingenuous: Incompetent: Dishonest: Duped? You decide.

Ladies and gentlemen of the Scottish Football Monitor sorority/fraternity jury, who want an honest game, honestly governed, are invited to pass judgement on Stewart Regan, the CEO of the SFA.

The main stream media are finally asking questions of Regan’s performance in that role, but based on a rather shallow (by comparison to what he has presided over) single issue of the recruitment of a national team coach, and not his character.

Maybe we can help the three monkeys media men (you know who they are) push for change at the SFA. How? By highlighting for them the appropriate response to Regan’s performance on the basis of what follows if he really is a  DIDDY.

Disingenuous is defined as:

not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

Evidence of such can be found in the written exchanges with the SFA that Celtic initiated on 27th July, and continued on 18 August, 21 August, 4th September and 7th September 2017; and published on the Celtic web site with SFA agreement at  http://cdn.celticfc.net/assets/downloads/SFA_Correspondence.pdf

This from the SFA letter of 18th August 2017:

Comment: the statements are not alleged, they are a matter of court record and if untrue represent perjury.

 

…. And then this from subsequent SFA letter of 4th September 2017

Both paras give the impression that the SFA were unaware that Rangers had accepted the liability without question before 31st March 2011. Yet the SFA’s attention was drawn to this fact in July 2015 by lawyers acting on behalf of Celtic shareholders as follows:

  • Our information in respect of this £2.8M in unpaid tax is that Rangers PLC had been alerted in November 2010 by HMRC that they would be pursuing payment of this exact sum.
  • From that date onwards, the Directors of Rangers PLC should have known there was a potential liability to HMRC for back taxes specifically relating to payments made to Tore Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer. These sums became an accepted liability in March 2011.
  • Matters had been brought to a head on 23 February 2011 when HMRC presented Rangers with a written case for payment of back tax owed in respect of Flo and De Boer.   As your department may well be aware, that case for payment involved hitherto undisclosed side letters which were found to be an adjunct to their declared and disclosed contracts of employment.
  • Those contracts of employment were, of course, disclosed to the Scottish Football authorities (including the SFA) as part of the necessary compliance procedures followed by all clubs and demanded by both the SFA and UEFA.
  • Additionally when replying to the initial enquiries by HMRC in 2005 regarding these alleged side letters and ancillary agreements, the then Group Tax Manager of Murray International Holdings (MIH)  acting for Rangers PLC on tax matters, apparently advised HMRC that no such agreements or side letters existed.
  • It ultimately proved that these representations to HMRC were completely untrue and without foundation. The tax Inspectors concerned in turn saw these false misrepresentations as being an attempt to simply hide the true financial position and an attempt to avoid paying the taxes which were lawfully due on the contracts of the players concerned.
  • As mentioned earlier, Rangers PLC accepted liability on 21st March 2011 for unpaid tax having taken legal advice on the matter.
  • In turn, HMRC then chose to formally pursue payment of the back taxes and penalties in relation to these two players, all in terms of HMRC’s debt recovery procedures under what is known as regulation 80.
  • Prior to 31st March 2011, there was clear knowledge within Rangers Football Club of the liability to make payment for these back taxes and, as can be seen from the attached documentation, by 20th May 2011 HMRC had served formal assessments and demands on Rangers PLC for the sums concerned.

The impression given by Regan’s reply to Celtic is that the first time the SFA were aware there might be an issue on granting was in June 2017 as result of testimony at the Craig Whyte trial. This is clearly not the case and the only explanation that would clear Regan of being disingenuous is a that he was incompetent as in not knowing what the SFA already had in their possession, however a bit more on being disingenuous before looking at incompetency.

The above extract of the exchange of 4th September where Regan mentions Celtic being satisfied on the UEFA Licence 2011 issue was challenged by Celtic on 7th September 2017 as follows:

“on the matter of the Licensing Decision in 2011 it is not accurate to describe Celtic as having been “satisfied” at any stage. Like everyone else we were in a position of responding on the basis of information available to us. In correspondence, Celtic raised continuing concerns as did a number of Celtic shareholders.”

 

In dealing with the Celtic shareholders the SFA and Regan appeared keen to welcome from the early days of correspondence that only the process after granting i.e. the monitoring phase of June and September was being questioned and not the granting itself.  That was the case initially but as new information emerged in respect of what UEFA judged to be an overdue payable, upheld by the Court of Arbitration on Sport in 2013, focus swung back in 2016 to the significance of what the SFA had been told by the Res 12 lawyer in July 2015. However the emphasis the SFA put on shareholders accepting the grant was in order was puzzling at the time. The suspicion since is that the SFA did not want the circumstances around the granting investigated and the SFA and Regan were being disingenuous in their attempts to keep that aspect under wraps. especially when their defence of not acting as required  in 2011 was based around when the SFA responsibilities on granting ended and UEFA’s on monitoring began. (for more on that read the Incompetence charge)

In response to a separate point in Regan’s  letter of  18th August about the QC advice on there not being a rule in place at the time to use to sanction Rangers or the limited sanctions available to  a Judicial Panel, Peter Lawwell responded on 21st August to Regan’s disingenuousness as follows:

” In your letter you refer to advice from Senior Counsel that;

‘there was very little chance of the Scottish FA succeeding in relation to any compliant regarding this matter and that, even if successful, any sanctions available to a Judicial Panel would be very limited in their scope.’

As I said in my last letter Celtic considers that this misses the point. The fact that disciplinary sanctions may not be secured is in our view not a reason for Scottish football to ignore the opportunity to review and possibly learn lessons from the events in question.”

 

Although they didn’t refer to it in that reply of 21st August, Celtic could have pointed out the following catch all rule in existence in 2011 (and presumably earlier) under Article 5 in SFA handbook.

5.   Obligations and duties of Members (where all members shall)

5.1 Observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play.

This Article could have been used to demonstrate sporting dishonesty by Rangers FC. However by recognising this Regan would be on a collision course with an issue that he wanted to avoid at all costs;

whom to sanction? Rangers FC? The Rangers FC? Those currently at The Rangers FC who were officials or on the Board of Rangers FC in 2011?

Consequently, the SFA chose to hide behind QC advice – but to protect whom? Not the integrity of the game. Here is a suggestion to restore it:

That the Rangers FC admit that the trophies won in the EBT years were won as a result of clear wrongdoing (the wrongdoing Regan was so desperate to say never occurred – see later), and that The Rangers  give them up. Surrendering them is not being defeated, it is simply the right thing to do for the game AND for Rangers to restore some integrity to themselves.

If they want to lay claim to their history, lay claim to all of it, just be honourable and act with dignity and we can all move on.

In summary then, Regan is being disingenuous by pretending to know a lot less than he does – and on that note the case of disingenuousness ends.

 

Incompetence: is defined as;

lack of ability to do something successfully or as it should be done:

Whilst a CEO would not be expected to know the minutiae of any process, he would be expected to seek such information before going public to defend the SFA’s position.

On 23 October 2013, Stewart Regan had an interview with Richard Gordon on BBC Sportsound. Excerpts from it can be heard at http://www.bbc.com/sport/scotland/24685973 .  Interestingly or strangely,  the following excerpt regarding the lines of responsibility between the SFA and UEFA fell on the BBC cutting room floor.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9YktGc0kwWjJCY1E/view?usp=sharing

In it Regan is saying that the 31st March is a key date and AFTER that date, the SFA having granted the licence on evidence provided to the SFA (now under Compliance Officer investigation) have no more responsibility in the matter. Richard Gordon asks Regan to confirm that after 31st March there is no other course of action the SFA could have taken. To which Regan answers “Correct”.

This understanding however does not stand up when compared to the information supplied to the Res 12 Lawyer on 8th June 2016 by Andrea Traverso, Head of UEFA Club Licensing and so ultimate authority on the matter.

That letter (more famous for its new club/company designation of the current incumbents at Ibrox), confirmed that the UEFA Licence was not granted until the 19th April 2011, so Regan was wrong on his dates, but even more significantly UEFA stated that the list of clubs granted a licence was not submitted to them until 26th May 2011.

This raises the obvious question (though not so obviously to Regan);

” how can UEFA start monitoring until they know who to monitor?”

More significantly, and one for the SFA Compliance chap to consider, should the licence have been granted, irrespective of what “evidence” the SFA Licensing Committee acted on in March 2011 , when it was obvious from a HMRC Letter of 20th May 2011 to Rangers, that HMRC were pursuing payment of a tax liability which could no longer by dint of being pursued, be described as “potential” which was the justification for granting at 31st March/19th April?

Here ends the case of incompetence.

Dishonesty;

lack of honesty or integrity: defined as disposition to defraud or deceive.

The line between incompetence and dishonesty is a thin one and so difficult to judge, however some discernment is possible from observation over time.

On 29 March 2012 Stewart Regan was interviewed by Alex Thomson of Channel Four news, a transcript of which with comments can be found on a previous SFM blog of 8th March 2015 at

https://www.sfm.scot/did-stewart-regan-ken-then-wit-we-ken-noo/

It is a long article, but two points emerge from it.

Stewart Regan bases his defence of SFA inaction on the fact that at the time of the interview no wrongdoing had occurred . Regan emphasises this rather a lot. Had he been an honest man, he would have confessed that this defence fell when the Supreme Court ruled that wrong doing in respect of Rangers’ use of EBTs had occurred.

This extract from Regan’s letter of 4th September 2017  beggars  belief in light of his position on wrongdoing during interview with Alex Thomson.

” The reality is that the final decision in “The Big Tax Case” signalled closure for many involved in the game. It is hard to believe that a “wide review” no matter how well intentioned and how wide ranging could ever bring closure in the minds of every Scottish football fan and stakeholder.”

How on earth did the Supreme Court decision signal closure to Regan given his emphasis on no wrong doing?

Had Regan (in response to Celtic in August and September 2017) acknowledged that wrongdoing had taken place, then that at least would have been honest, but the defence of not acting was on the grounds that admitting dishonesty would be raking over old coals. An honest man would have accepted that the situation had changed, and some form of enquiry was necessary, but instead Regan fell back on unpublished advice from a QC.

The second point is a new one. Regan was asked by Alex Thomson in March 2012

AT:   But did anybody at any stage at the SFA say to you I have a concern that we need an independent body, that the SPL can’t and shouldn’t handle this?

SR:   Well under the governance of football the SPL run the competition

AT:   I’m not asking, I’m saying did anybody come to you at any stage and say that to you. Anybody?

SR:   No they didn’t as far as the SPL’s processes is concerned. The SPL ,

AT:   Never?

At time of interview in March 2012 this was true but 2 months later on 25th May 2012 the issue of a Judicial review WAS raised by Celtic

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/celtic-still-pressing-sfa-for-inquiry-8p25q8wbb

for the same reasons that Regan had ignored in 2011 as the LNS Commissioning proceeded apace and Regan continued to ignore in the 2017 correspondence.  An honest man would have recognised that his truth to Thomson in March was no longer true in May 2012 and acted. He didn’t.

These do not appear to be acts of an honest man, rather they appear to represent the behaviour of a man who is being dishonest with himself; although perhaps Regan was simply duped?

Duped is defined as;

“ If a person dupes you, they trick you into doing something or into believing something which is not true.”

In his e mail of 7th December to Ali Russell, then Rangers CEO , after a discussion on the 6th December 2011 with Andrew Dickson, Rangers Football Administrator and SFA License Committee member in 2011, Regan set out the basis on which the SFA granted a UEFA License in 2011.

This was a letter from Ranger’s auditors Grant Thornton describing the wee tax liability of £2.8m as a potential one with the implication that it was subject to dispute, an implication carried into the Interim Accounts of 1st April 2011 signed by Rangers FC Chairman Alistair Johnson.

The true status of the liability and the veracity of statements made that justified the UEFA License being granted are under investigation by the SFA Compliance Officer.

However Regan’s belief that the liability was disputed and therefore hadn’t crystalized, is supported more or less by his Tweets at

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9NG5CNXcwLW9RZjQ/view?usp=sharing

The case that Regan was duped is a plausible one, at least up to 2015, but I would contend that the SFA responses to Res 12 lawyers after July 2015 suggest that whilst the SFA may have been duped initially, they subsequently appeared more concerned with keeping events beyond public scrutiny (like the effect on the licence issue of HMRC sending in Sheriff’s Officers to collect a £2.8m tax liability in August 2011).

 

At this point, based on the foregoing –

You the SFM jury are asked to decide: Is Stewart Regan a DIDDY?

 

 

 

Copy paste this link for GUILTY:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejizOV-IQEM

And this for NOT GUILTY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwXGdgFZmNk

 

The Sin of Omission by Margaret Sangster ends:

And it’s not the things you do, dear,
It’s the things you leave undone,
Which gives you a bit of heartache
At the setting of the sun.

 

Auldheid
Celtic fan from Glasgow living mostly in Spain. A contributor to several websites, discussion groups and blogs, and a member of the Resolution 12 Celtic shareholders' group. Committed to sporting integrity, good governance, and the idea that football is interdependent. We all need each other in the game.

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1595 COMMENTS


  1. HOMUNCULUS
    FEBRUARY 24, 2018 at 13:20
    http://www.ljg-jobs.com/scottishfa/
    “CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER AT THE SCOTTISH FA
    Dear Candidate,
    Thank you for your interest in this opportunity…

    These priorities sit within four strategic pillars –

    Perform and Win
    Strong Quality Growth
    Improving Football’s Finances
    Leading the Game”

    =================

    And the 4 pillars as per the document itself;
    “&
    bull;    Perform and Win
    •    Strong Quality Growth
    •    Better financial returns
    •    Respected and Trusted to Lead”

    Mibbees the blazers are starting to learn after all?

    “Respected and Trusted” is an unrealistic target for the SFA.


  2. From the SFA’s statement of values:

    “We lead with purpose – We are committed to the principals of development and fair play and expect everyone in the game to do the same”

    Ah, maybe that’s where the fault has lain: they don’t know their ‘principles’ from their ‘principals’. 

    Their history over at least the past decade gives the lie to their ‘commitment’ to the principle of ‘fair play’.

    We know that they have failed dismally to ensure that their structures were robust enough to detect cheats, and any illicit support for cheats,
    and that their minds and hearts were corrupt enough to chicken out of dealing effectively with a discovered (not by them!) now dead cheat,or of dealing in a principled way with a current club that falsely claims to be entitled to the sporting achievements of that dead club, but resists the logical concomitant that it is liable for the debts of that dead club!

    The absurdity of the claim to be committed to ‘fair play’ is there for the whole world to see.

    And any one who applies for the job of CEO will be defining himself/herself as  being of the same stamp as the kind of cheating individual who has no concept of Sporting Integrity, and is as devious and dishonourable as the manager of a casino in which the roulette wheel and the blackjack shoes are rigged.

    Malediction be upon such an one.


  3. John ClarkFebruary 24, 2018 at 17:21

    I am laughing and crying at this ‘mistake’. What else can we do?


  4. Well I’m a particularly happy Scotland fan tonight after that performance! Easily our best show since it became the 6 nations. Great game and the atmosphere tonight in the capital is electric (gutted now I’ve not managed to get tickets!!). What other sport would you be out all day watching with the opposition with zero animosity. 


  5. What now for the national stadium? 

    Years of austerity at the SFA while Hamdump is redeveloped (again), or flit along the M8 to a ready for business Murrayfield, which again today showed how good it could be for high profile games and supporting our national teams.


  6. I can imagine the crowd size at Murrayfield for Scotland v Albania on a Monday  night . Lucky to get to five figures at Hampden for it, even with free tickets  . I’m for taking international matches around the country to stadia that are appropriate for the expected crowd , and I’m sure the SFA will ensure that these  stadia meet the requirements by funding upgrades as required . Only one each in Glasgow and Edinburgh , though(Hampden and Murrayfield) .


  7. I was reading earlier today about a chap called Dampier.

    In his journal of adventures in the South Seas, published in London in 1691, appears a narrative of his first visit to the western shores of Australia.

    I came across this extract from his journal, and thought immediately that Dampier possessed the fundamental, essential talent for underestimating the intelligence of others that the SFA as a body possesses. 

    I give you this in evidence, straight from his journal:

    “.. thinking that this finery would have brought them to work heartily for us, and our water being filled in small long barrels, about six gallons in each, which were made purposely to carry water in, we brought these our servants to the wells, and put a barrel on each of their shoulders for them to carry to the canoe.

    But all the signs we could make were to no purpose, for they stood like statues, without motion, but grinned like so many monkies, staring one upon another, for these poor creatures seemed not accustomed to carry burthens, and I believe that one of our ship boys of ten years old would carry as much as one of them.
    So we were forced to carry our water ourselves, and they fairly put the clothes off again, and laid them down, as if clothes were only to work in.. .. . ”

    He simply did not see that the intelligent ‘natives’  were looking at each other in disbelief that anyone could be so feckin stupid as to carry barrels of water for unwelcome visitors, and saying their equivalent of ” what kind of nutcases are these guys, thinking that we’re going to carry their feckin barrels. Let’s tell the f…ers to get to …!”

    The SFA has treated us all as Dampier treated those indigenous Australians, insulting our intelligence as he insulted theirs, by expecting us to accept the Big Lie, and trust that they operate on a basis of honest principle, as guardians of our game’s Integrity.


  8. I’ve just noticed that the goal scorers at Ibrox yesterday were Murphy (Brighton & Hove Albion) and Martin (Norwich City).
    I know that both of these players were formerly loan players but are they now overdraft credit facility players?


  9. JC

    having had the misfortune to work with several Dampier ‘types’ in my time I’m also fairly confident that three of the illiterate naked servile “monkeys” were probably deliberately standing in front of a tap with a pipe running down to the shoreline!


  10. Interesting parallel in JC’s post. I had never heard of Dampier until reading the post. It certainly pre-dates good old Captain Cooks “discovery ” of Australia  since he wasn’t born till 1728. History being skewed in favour of a British agenda? Imagine that…
    PS . A blue banner appears on my screen when I am on this site. Anyone know how to remove it?


  11. LUGOSIFEBRUARY 25, 2018 at 06:53

    I’ve just noticed that the goal scorers at Ibrox yesterday were Murphy (Brighton & Hove Albion) and Martin (Norwich City).I know that both of these players were formerly loan players but are they now overdraft credit facility players?

    ========================

    If only the SFA had a moral compass. Rangers are using money they don’t have to acquire players to aspire towards Europe to pay back the money they don’t have!

    Then again if the SFA had a moral compass we probably would have moved on by now. 


  12. One of Regan’s few useful changes was to change the Disciplinary Process.
    It is one of life’s ironies  (a bit like SFA being trusted) that the process he was largely responsible for introducing, is in breach of one of its own Founding  Principles.
    There is a petition now at 
    https://www.change.org/p/peter-lawell-ceo-celtic-fc-petition-to-seek-information-from-the-sfa?recruiter=846655274&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive

    which needs support from fans of all clubs who just want football they can believe in.
    If that is you then please sign and spread the word.


  13. upthehoopsFebruary 25, 2018 at 08:52 (Edit)
    28
    7 i
    Rate This
    LUGOSIFEBRUARY 25, 2018 at 06:53
    I’ve just noticed that the goal scorers at Ibrox yesterday were Murphy (Brighton & Hove Albion) and Martin (Norwich City).I know that both of these players were formerly loan players but are they now overdraft credit facility players?
    ========================
    If only the SFA had a moral compass. Rangers are using money they don’t have to acquire players to aspire towards Europe to pay back the money they don’t have!
    Then again if the SFA had a moral compass we probably would have moved on by now. 
    ===================
    It is the same insane business model that saw them liquidated and that SFA allow by not applying club licensing as intended.

    Making them do that is why the petition for SFA posted earlier is to benefit of all clubs competing for a UEFA place.


  14. If, as we suspect the new shares in RIFC plc are issued to those who have loaned that business at least £16.9M then, will this not alter the percentage holding of the “concert party as determined by the LSE Takeover Panel?


  15. SANNOFFYMESSSOITIZZFEBRUARY 25, 2018 at 20:03
    If, as we suspect the new shares in RIFC plc are issued to those who have loaned that business at least £16.9M then, will this not alter the percentage holding of the “concert party as determined by the LSE Takeover Panel?
    —————–
    Only £500,000 to reach the club 1872 thingy to put £1million into the club.


  16. Bobby Madden needs to reflect, and take a good hard look at himself after today.  In front of his eyes he ignored Kris Ajer falling to the ground after a collision of heads.  The game should have been immediately stopped.

    Celtic can still remember the tragic death of young John Thomson after an accidental knock to the head playing football.  1931.

    The rule is there for a reason.

    Thank God Kris was OK but Madden should be taken seriously to task for this.


  17. 6 People taken to hospital after the blast in Leicester.  Two are critical.  Thoughts and prayers.

    Sorry if anyone finds that offensive. I didn’t realise this version had so much religious imagery.


  18. AULDHEIDFEBRUARY 25, 2018 at 23:29

    To everyone who has signed petition to find out where matters stand on the SFA Invesigation into UEFA Licence 2011 – many thanks. Just climbed over 800.Here is the link for late posters/lurkers.

    ===========================

    It is my hope that Celtic will use this to question the SFA then go public if they don’t get a satisfactory answer.  This has gone on far too long and I believe it is reasonable to believe the SFA simply don’t know how to conclude the investigation without compromising a number of individuals they would rather protect. Are some of those individuals still in the boardroom at Ibrox?


  19. JIMBOFEBRUARY 25, 2018 at 21:08

    Bobby Madden needs to reflect, and take a good hard look at himself after today.  In front of his eyes he ignored Kris Ajer falling to the ground after a collision of heads.  The game should have been immediately stopped.
    Celtic can still remember the tragic death of young John Thomson after an accidental knock to the head playing football.  1931.
    The rule is there for a reason.
    Thank God Kris was OK but Madden should be taken seriously to task for this.

    =======================

    I see you have some thumbs down for this post. I can only conclude the colour of jersey has influenced those responsible. I’d like to think most decent football fans can see the point you are making.  As always though it would be easier if the media were to highlight these things but we may well be back to the colour of jersey again.


  20. Probably indicative of nothing very much, but has there been any mention of RIFC’s ‘Expression of Interest’ in the media yet? Just seems strange that, as every money raising venture from Ibrox usually receives heaps of free advertising and jingoistic coverage, this very important fund raiser should remain ‘under the radar’!


  21. upthehoopsFebruary 26, 2018 at 07:20
    ‘………I believe it is reasonable to believe the SFA simply don’t know how to conclude the investigation without compromising a number of individuals they would rather protect……’
    ___________
    About two hours ago I heard a guy on BBC Radio Scotland ( possibly in the ‘sports’ bit at the tail end of the news) waxing eloquent about the national rugby team’s splendid victory. He went on about the uplifting effect that that kind of sporting success has on the team, on rugby in general, on sport in general, and on the Nation. So far so good.
    He then went into a paean of praise for all the wonderful things that are happening in Scottish Football: the womens’ game, youth, ‘homeless’ football, the national centres, etc etc.
    (I didn’t catch the chap’s name-I suppose he was some kind of spokesperson for Rugby, but he sounded like a politician)
    Of course, whatever may be the case in other sports, Scottish Football is rotting  at its core.
    And the rot goes deeper the longer its presence is denied and the men whose actions introduced the disease that is the Big Lie  and stand in the way of measures to eradicate it remain unchallenged in post.
    Regan’s going is of no value in itself, as long as the men from whom he took instruction are still wielding their baneful influence.


  22. Allyjambo
    February 26, 2018 at 09:30
    ==================================

    Just guessing here, is it possible that they have send out an expression of interest as part of the process prior to allocating shares how they see fit, as agreed at the last AGM.

    If that is the case they may not want to draw a lot of attention to it, hence the lack of mention in the press.

    I would imagine that the press will hold shares in most football clubs which are structured that way. If for no other reason than to get access to AGMs and get notifications like this. Thye also monitor social media sites, so they definitely know about it. One would have thought the very least they would have done would be to contact the PLC to seek further details.

    It could of course be a hoax, I have only seen one version, and that is the one which has clearly been selectively cut.


  23. Re Logan

    Can only go by tv highlights. Im assuming he was using the same discretion he employed when not booking Brown for gesturing to the home fans.  But that’s pure speculation on my part.


  24. Ernie, I think that’s a bit harsh. For whatever reason, Madden took a dangerous course of action and some fans are saying that’s not right. When you see the same thing and choose not to mention it or do anything about it, that’s your choice. I think it’s better highlighted.
    I haven’t bothered commenting here before as that’s pretty ineffective, but have this morning emailed the SFA asking to see their guidelines to referees for such incidents and asking them to comment on Madden’s (lack of) action at the time. It’s important to let them know fans want better….for all teams, not just Celtic.


  25. Smugas
    February 26, 2018 at 13:21
    ===============================

    Was that not where some of the Celtic support were. If I remember correctly that’s where Tierney ran to celebrate his goal and where the players went after the game was finished.

    Happy for a Pittodrie regular to clarify who was sitting there.


  26. nawliteFebruary 26, 2018 at 14:03
    Ernie, I think that’s a bit harsh. For whatever reason, Madden took a dangerous course of action and some fans are saying that’s not right. When you see the same thing and choose not to mention it or do anything about it, that’s your choice. I think it’s better highlighted. I haven’t bothered commenting here before as that’s pretty ineffective, but have this morning emailed the SFA asking to see their guidelines to referees for such incidents and asking them to comment on Madden’s (lack of) action at the time. It’s important to let them know fans want better….for all teams, not just Celtic.
    ——————————————————————
    Nawlite please post the guidelines (if any) to referees when you get them. I can’t believe they will not allow discretion but will be interested to see. Jimbo seems to suggest that there is a “rule” saying the game should be stopped in cases of head knocks. Is there? To relate yesterday’s incident, however remotely, to the John Thomson tragedy in 1931 is way OTT (in my opinion!).


  27. For whats its worth Madden should have probably blown as Ajer stayed down in the same position holding his head.

    I do however note that no particular concern was shown by any of the other players, even after play stopped when the ball went out of play.

    As Bordersdon says I am not sure where it says the game must be stopped in the event of a head clash.

    While he was injured how does the ref not know if Ajer is play acting to cover up for the school boy error of not being able to communicate between team mates.

    Madden clearly stopped the game in this incident where a Celtic player was injured. 

    Incompetence and inconsistency as opposed to conspiracy.


  28. I find it staggering that my comment about John Thomson should be regarded as OTT.  It is the most relevant, and only example I can remember, where a player lost his life due to a head knock.  The fact I mentioned it did not turn this into a single club issue.

    ‘Incompetence and inconsistency’ is correct.  I would add dangerous.  The only problem I would give way to for referees on this, is the idiotic, selfish play acting players who go down too easily, sometimes holding their heads.  Where no contact has been made.  Theatrical prima donnas. It happens frequently all over.  Even then, play should stop to make sure.

    This isn’t about Aberdeen v Celtic.  It’s about referees with a duty of care.


  29. WOTTPI I think you mean when both opposing players were injured in that incident.Incompetence and inconsistency yes I would say so 1 knock was a wee head rub at the end the other was 4 minutes of treatment on the park one was the back of the head the other was in the temple area.


  30. I can’t wait until referees have video replay technology.  If it is shown the player was play acting, a straight red card.


  31.                        jimboFebruary 26, 2018 at 15:27
    I can’t wait until referees have video replay technology.  If it is shown the player was play acting, a straight red card.
    —————————————————————–
    Not sure it is that simple Jimbo! Some players are very good actors!
    Staggered you are staggered though.


  32. Bordersdon,  How many times have you watched a replay on TV where a player has dived in the penalty box?  No contact made.  Blatant cheating.
    I know it would not be simple, there would be marginal incidents where the player would be given the benefit of the doubt.  But on the most obvious ones, a red card for simulation.


  33. jimboFebruary 26, 2018 at 15:53
    Bordersdon,  How many times have you watched a replay on TV where a player has dived in the penalty box?  No contact made.  Blatant cheating. I know it would not be simple, there would be marginal incidents where the player would be given the benefit of the doubt.  But on the most obvious ones, a red card for simulation.
    ————————————————————–
    With you 100% on that example Jimbo but not so easy to judge whether a knock on the head is serious or whether simulation is at work!!


  34. Right it’s time to lighten up.  This is for Bordersdon and all the other posters who don’t support Celtic.

    ‘Celtic star Leigh Griffiths’ handed £30 parking fine — as he arrived at court to face speeding charge’

    Of course I could say he is being targeted in Dundee, but I won’t!


  35. I got a quick response to my request for a copy of the guidelines provided to referees in respect of head injuries. Because of the usual disclaimers/threats, I don’t want to simply copy & paste the email chain.
    “Referees are giving clear guidance as per the Laws of the Game regarding players receiving injuries: Law 5 – Injuries • allows play to continue until the ball is out of play if a player is only slightly injured• stops play if a player is seriously injured and ensures that the player is removed from the field of play. An injured player may not be treated on the field of play and may only re-enter after play has restarted; if the ball is in play, re-entry must be from the touchline but if the ball is out of play, it may be from any boundary line. Exceptions to the requirement to leave the field of play are only when: • a goalkeeper is injured  • a goalkeeper and an outfield player have collided and need attention  • players from the same team have collided and need attention  • a severe injury has occurred  • a player is injured as the result of a physical offence for which the opponent is cautioned or sent off (e.g. reckless or serious foul challenge), if the assessment/treatment is completed quickly• ensures that any player bleeding leaves the field of play. The player may only re-enter on receiving a signal from the referee, who must be satisfied that the bleeding has stopped and there is no blood on the equipment • if the referee has authorised the doctors and /or stretcher bearers to enter the field of play, the player must leave on a stretcher or on foot. A player who does not comply, must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour • if the referee has decided to caution or send off a player who is injured and has to leave the field of play for treatment, the card must be shown before the player leaves”
    As you’ll see, there is NO specific guideline re head injuries. However, in response to my accompanying question re the Ajer/Simunovic incident, the respondent commented that based on these guidelines he would expect a referee to stop play if he suspects an injury is serious with particular emphasis on any head injury. It seems to me that Mr Madden is not necessarily expected to stop play unless he is SURE that it is a serious rather than slight injury. As usual, there is sufficient grey area in SFA guidelines/rules so that no one can actually say ‘you got that wrong’.
    I replied, asking the (knowledgeable) respondent if in his view Mr Madden should have stopped play in the specific incident. He didn’t comment on the specific incident, but said generally that a head injury always takes priority and based on a player falling to the ground with little movement thereafter, he would expect the game to be stopped. NB he did qualify this by saying that a referee may see that the individual is in little distress and therefore play on.
    I tried to ask if Mr Madden would be questioned within the SFA over his inaction, but I then got the usual suspicious ‘Are you asking just for yourself?’ reply.
    Looks like the guidelines are grey enough for no one to bother.


  36. Homunculus @14.09

    ah, that corner.  The one Brown celebrates at right angles to after the Dembele goal.  That’s the corner you mean?

    sorry folks.  In terms of contribution I’m out.

    lurking only for me.


  37. Ernie:
    “I was going to comment that Ajer left on the ground by the ref is the kind of unfair/potentially dangerous event that happens almost every game I attend and yet there is no compelling desire for me to post updates for my fellow Dons fans”

    Ernie, I have never posted ‘updates’ to my fellow Celtic fans.  As is crystal clear I was addressing all posters on here about one single incident about a referee.   If you had posted about potentially dangerous events at almost every game you attend I would not have taken offence.  In fact I would have backed you.

    I think you have called this one wrong IMHO, I’ve done it myself in the past.  As for this being a Celtic demographic I beg to differ.  Celtic posters might be the majority but many are a silent majority.  Lots of the big hitters on here are from clubs from all over.  You know that.  Think again and stay posted.  Please.

    You too Smugas, I’m surprised at you.


  38. I notice some tension on here . Must be nerves as we await Mr King’s next starring role . IMO , the best referee in Scotland is poor and the rest are worse . These guys are paid  ie professional . Anywhere else, you’d dump the lot and get someone else in who can do the job to your satisfaction . Unfortunately it appears the SPFL is satisfied with what it is seeing, or is too mean to pay for proper officials .((That after us getting a penalty as well !).


  39. Couple of daft posts have been removed. First time we’ve had to do that in a long time and it is very disappointing.

    I don’t see how it can be construed as offensive when someone makes a remark about an incident – as long as there is no invective attached to any individual.

    I could see Aberdeen fans might be annoyed if Celtic fans were using the Madden incident as an excuse for losing a goal, but they didn’t score as a consequence of the situation – so what on earth is the problem? It becomes a general point on player safety, and in fact the discussion was a school-day for me. I didn’t know for example that headknocks were NOT specified in the guidelines.

    Nor did I know that referees were required to make clinical judgements either.

    The debate is not a partisan one in the circumstances. 

    I really don’t give a toss what people think of Scott Brown or Steven McLean or Shay Logan, as long as no invective is directed at them. Like refereeing decisions, there is little room for objectivity when we discuss out pet hates.

    Should also be pointed out that John Thomson’s injury was fatal because there was no way to treat it in 1931. Treatment of a similar injury nowadays (and there have been a few over the last few years) is critically time-dependent.

    The guidelines appear to favour goalkeepers in taking discretion away from the ref, but a stricken outfield player is dependent on a clinical judgement made by a non-clinician.

    Don’t know the answer, but I think it is worth thinking about.


  40. The point seems to be that the actual incident appears to be of little concern to the media airbrushed as if it didn’t happen or it was nothing to bother with.


  41. Borussiabeefburg,  I wasn’t aware of any other player who died in the circumstance.  In which case I retract ‘most relevant’.  They are all equally relevant.

    I did a search but could only find numerous cases of players being taken to hospital and having narrow escapes. It’s still a big issue my friend.


  42. BORUSSIABEEFBURGFEBRUARY 26, 2018 at 19:03
    The Levein/Brown debacle the other week emphasised this, for me.
    ————-
    I missed alot of the Levein/Brown debacle,been very busy so i have been in and out the blog.
    On looking something up for myself, your post and the part about the Levein/Brown debacle reminded me i had come across a Levein article from this day in history 26th Feb 2012.
    Back then Levein only had praise for Mr Brown.


  43. Re diving 
    What if ,when the ref thinks a player has dived .
    If there was a say,white card the ref could show the player he believes had dived the white card send him to the technical area and request a review of the replay .the play continues with the player on the sideline awaiting the review .

    If the review finds that it’s inconclusive the player is then allowed to come back on at the next stop of play .

    If however the review deems no contact and the player to have dived then the ref can then go over and show the player a red card for simulation .

    No delay in play ,the ref would be more confident in dealing with cheating rather than it being a split second decision ,and I think if players knew their diving would be reviewed in play ,I would suspect they would be a lot less inclined to chance their arm  


  44. SMUGAS
    FEBRUARY 26, 2018 at 17:09
    ==============================

    No I don’t mean the corner, I mean the area of that stand which I thought had Celtic supporters in it, it’s certainly the part that Keiran Tierney ran towards after he had scored his goal. 

    Like I said, I am happy to be corrected by someone who frequents Pittodrie. 

    I’m actually just pleased that he didn’t roll about cheating after he had been fouled, then kicked when he was down, then had an opposition player kick the ball at him. Getting up was actually quite refreshing in the modern game. Particularly as time wasting would have been on a lot of people’s minds. 


  45. F.O.F.  It’s all up for discussion or at least should be.  Perhaps your too forward thinking for the SFA though!

    Another point.  Referees are not doctors.  Err on the safe side.

    So maybe there is no direct mention of head clashes.  So what?  The rule is implicit, a serious injury.  (Potentially)

    I honestly don’t understand why I’m having to argue my case here.  Go and search for head clashes in football.


  46. Nawlite, apologies, I meant to post this earlier.  That was a good deal of trouble you went to, to get some worthwhile answers from pointed questions.  Thanks.


  47. Shug, PaddyM, Bally,if your still on, after all the unexpected tension on here today I’m in the mood for music.  If its left to me I’ll put on something sad.  Go on our music channel, do me a favour.  Cheers.  (that goes for anyone obviously especially non Celtic fans 21 , even the site up a bit more) In fact I’ve just thought of a song!

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